Sofie van den Enk: Welcome to the supply chain talks podcast. My name is Sophie von Enk. In season 2 of this podcast, we will dive into the world of sustainable container supply chains. As decision makers, cargo owners, and freight forwarders play a key role in boosting sustainability in the logistics chain. But how do you build a c 02 neutral and at the same time resilient supply chain? And what are the possibilities and standout examples that exist today? The concept reduce, replace, rethink can be used as a strategy to decarbonize your supply chain. Each episode, I will discuss one of these three concepts with container industry experts. I'm ready to explore the possibilities, so join me on this journey, and we will learn something together. This episode, I'll be diving into the concept of reduce with APM Terminals and port base, the port community system for the Dutch ports. Together with Donald Baan and Mara Fron, I will explore how you can reduce waste in your supply chain through digitization and end to end visibility. Welcome to this episode, Mara and Donald. Good to see you. Donald, maybe you can start by introducing yourself and tell tell us what it is that you do at Portbase. Donald Baan: Sure. At Portbase, I work, at the business development marketing and sales, department. So, we try to figure out new possible digital solutions for our community and also try to make sure that everybody uses it in the correct way. Sofie van den Enk: Mhmm. Donald Baan: And I have a previous history at the Port Authority, but also at a container shipping line. Sofie van den Enk: Okay. So you're Rotterdam through and through. Donald Baan: That's it. Yeah. Exactly. Sofie van den Enk: And why are you so passionate about digitizing the port? Well, I Donald Baan: think, digitizing the port, is, all about, figuring new ways of working together. Mhmm. And I really love, to, to tackle huge problems, but not, single handedly, but it has to be a joint effort. And the cooperation, in the community is really what, thrice me to Mara Vroon: my business. Sofie van den Enk: Oh, great. Well, then I'm glad that we're all talking together because, indeed, we cannot, establish these big changes on our own. Mara, I'm sure you agree. Can you maybe introduce yourself and and tell us a little bit more about APM Terminals? Mara Vroon: Yes, of course. So, I am the head of commerce for APM Terminals Maestro Octo 2 here in, in Rotterdam. I have been, working there since, 10 years. And, for us, it's all about collaboration, with the different supply chain partners to ensure that together we can have a smooth connection between, the world and, the European interland. Sofie van den Enk: Yeah, absolutely. And then, APM, so you work here in Rotterdam, but you have there's APMs all over the world, right? Mara Vroon: Yes. Correct. So we have 64 terminals, spread around, the globe, at all different types of, locations. Here in Rotterdam, it's really a strategic location, into the European internet. Sofie van den Enk: Well, it's really great to have you here. A lot of experience at the table. So let's dive right in. Mara, you already mentioned, the hinterland. What what role, does APM play in in terms of the shippers and the forwarders towards this hinterland? Mara Vroon: Yeah. So, as APM Terminals, it is really our ambition. So our dream to improve lives, by integrating the world. And in that, part, we are very, yeah, we are a key player. How do we do that? We want to be the most modern gateway into Europe, by delivering a fast, safe, and reliable connection for all the hinterland parties that we have here. Sofie van den Enk: Mhmm. Mara Vroon: And that also in an innovative and sustainable, way. Sofie van den Enk: Right. So cargo arrives here in, in Rotterdam and it, it, it, it, it lands at your terminal. And then what happens? How, how do you do that? Mara Vroon: Yeah. So for APM Terminals, Maast Doctor. 2, we have an, an automated setup, in that automated setup, it is very important that, we get the right information at the right time. Towards the hinterland, we, are partnering with Portbase, to, to get that information, in time. So, specifically on our side, we have barge operators, rail operators, and, truck operators that are of, of huge importance. Mhmm. We get big vessels alongside discharging and loading, huge amounts of, of containers, at the same time. So, for example, last week, we, discharged, the Manila Maersk with, 10,151 moves. Then it's really important that those containers get to flow out of the terminal in a seamless, seamless way. Mhmm. So we need to know where do the containers go, where can we position them right in the yard to avoid congestion. And that information is what we get via port base. So therefore, a crucial, partner for us. Sofie van den Enk: So how does that work? So you're talking about this very specific vessel last week. When when does the when does port base come into play when when there's a a big ship coming in like that? How does that go? Donald Baan: So for example, that's a nice example. Right? The ship coming in. So, the vessel arrival and the notification that the vessel will arrive to Rotterdam in this case is handled via port base. So the shipping line, they notify the arrival to the harbormaster, but also notify the arrival of the cargo to the customs. So everybody is aware that the cargo and the ship are coming to Rotterdam. Mhmm. And, we exchange that information, but also make sure that, updates on that information are provided to companies further along in the supply chain. Sofie van den Enk: And all that information is freely available that's not classified, or everybody's willing to share all of that? Donald Baan: Well, it's not freely it's not public data because it's also sensitive data. Could be commercially sensitive, but also from a risk perspective, sensitive data. So we have, not everybody is, is publicly allowed to use the data. You have to be a member, of a port base, and you are screened as a company, as a user before you can actually access the data that you're authorized to. Mara Vroon: Mhmm. Sofie van den Enk: Okay. Right. So then you start exchanging this data so that you can can ship this, that they can deal with this cargo as as quickly and as swiftly as as possible. Mara Vroon: Yeah, yes. Correct. So for example, we know before the container is discharged, how it is going to go, out of the terminal. And then in our yards, the location where we store the containers, we already store the containers that need to go on a train in the train stacks that are close to the, the rail terminal. Mhmm. Same accounts for barge and the same accounts for, for truck. Sofie van den Enk: Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a very vivid image this way. So that's that's that's cool. Portbase has been operating, for for 20 years, digitizing the port's logistics. So DNA I mean, digital is in your DNA Donald Baan: Yeah. Sofie van den Enk: But it's not status quo. It's continuously developing. Donald Baan: It is. And probably it's best linked with your personal life. Right? 20 years ago, mobile phone was nothing, was nowhere to be found. And step by step, more processes or information gets available digital. Mara Vroon: Right. Donald Baan: So what we saw 20 years ago is there's a lot of paper flow, paper documents, and the stamps on the paper, say, before the cargo was able to move through. And now we have, together with the community, digitized the core processes or the paper flows Mara Vroon: Yeah. Donald Baan: In, in the port. So we made a huge step there, but I think, it's a continuous, improvement on this, way because not only in the port, but also further along in the supply chain all the way towards the hinterland, we help to digitize processes and make sure that the data can flow. Sofie van den Enk: Yeah. Because just replacing, paper with data, of course, has been, I mean, a huge step in efficiency, but where it's really going to prove to be an extra added value, and I think you're already experiencing that, is when you start using the data to actually work for you, and then it becomes way more than just a replacement of paper. Donald Baan: Exactly. Yeah. We saw the first step was from paper to digital and now from digital to optimal. So you wanna really use the data, to optimize the processes. Sofie van den Enk: Yeah. And this is Donald Baan: the phase we are getting into now. Sofie van den Enk: Yeah. How do you experience that, Mara? Yeah. Mara Vroon: So it's the, the the data, of course, self that is more easily, shared, and and that makes the collaboration between partners a lot easier. Besides that, the the data also generates like a data set, which is very useful for improving, certain processes. Sofie van den Enk: And, of course, we're talking about digital also through the lens of sustainability. And this is also where it gets real interesting because you can really make big steps in reducing, the footprint of your your customers, but also your own footprint. Can you say that you're seeing development there as well? Mara Vroon: Yes. So, for example, in, in that regard, I, I think it's good to link it also to the time that the container is at the terminal. So previously, it took quite a while before it it was even known within the rest of the supply chain that the container arrived at the terminal. Also, by this, digitization and by sharing that data, the container can depart from the terminal earlier and therefore the whole lead time in the end will, yeah, will be less. Sofie van den Enk: Yeah. Yeah. So that really and how how does that link to sustainability? Mara Vroon: So by, by having the, a shorter lead time for the whole process, you can reuse the whole, equipment again in a faster way so you need less in the end. Sofie van den Enk: Yes. Yeah. Exactly. I, I even read that, APN Terminals made a commitment to be fully net 0 by 2040. With these types of developments, I'm sure that it's it's helpful, but how how are you looking at, reaching that goal? Mara Vroon: Definitely. Yeah. So, it's a very ambitious, ambitious target. All on all levels within the company, you see that this is really what it is about, right? We have the ambition to reduce to 70, with 70% to 2030, and then, yeah, like you said, Sophie, to be completely neutral, by 2,040. If I look here at, at Maslach 2, we started this terminal 10 years ago. We developed it 15 years ago. And, yeah, back then we already had this goal in mind. Mhmm. So here on the Maasvlakte, we were able to develop it already with that in the back of our minds, which means that at this moment, we have, we have a facility which is, fully, running on electric, equipment. At this moment here in Rotterdam, we are already, net 0. So the CO2 emission per TEU is like, 0.0001 or something. So the investments that we do here in Rotterdam are, are quite small compared to the rest of the world. So, for example, we are investing in, 6 new electric terminal trucks. If you look at the different parts in the world, we are looking at investments that are much, much bigger. It's the cranes that we need to electrify. It's, when we're building new facilities, it's already in the concept as of the beginning. So that makes it a bit. Easier. Yeah. But you also have a Sofie van den Enk: lot of legacy equipment probably that still operates in the old way, and there's not, a port base everywhere. That probably also makes a difference. Mara Vroon: Correct. Yeah. Sofie van den Enk: Yeah. Are you looking at branching out, Donna? Donald Baan: No. Although we get a lot of requests, but, I think the the the key success factor for port base, was that we developed it for, together with and by the community. So it's a complete integration, integrated approach together with the community because we saw also learned from previous experience that it's not so much about the technology, but it's much more about the, the willingness to cooperate and the understanding of each other's challenges and, the added value of corporation. Mhmm. And that's, I think more than 50% of our time the last 20 years was spent on talking with the community, discussing the the processes, really defining how this should work, and figuring out the the solution together. Mhmm. So that that cannot be underestimated, how much, value that has. And also, you see in other ports that for port base is very difficult in other, well, ports where we don't know the people, we don't speak the language, we don't know the culture before you can actually be successful as a Dutch company in those kind of settings. We rather focus on the Dutch ports and make sure that we get stronger and stronger Sofie van den Enk: and Maybe share your experience Mara Vroon: so that other Sofie van den Enk: port bases can just, emerge in their own countries. Yeah. And especially since you're sharing this sometimes very sensitive data, as you said, trust is a very important basis. It's the foundation really. Yeah. Yeah. Donald Baan: It's the key element of, or if you wanna share, data together, you have to trust each other. And trust is good by sitting together, but it's also good that you can really secure the trust also on a technology level. So that's why we have a very strict, and that's what they call identity and access management. We really know who's on the platform and who has what rights to the data, and we monitor it very strictly. But we also enable the data owners on our platform to, well, have a say in who they wanna share it with so they have control of their own data. Yeah. And that's a very important, element of our success. Sofie van den Enk: Yeah. How does that work, for you at APM? Because I think shippers and freight forwarders, they they sort of let you handle their cargo. But what happens exactly is a little bit of a black box for them, maybe. How do you provide insight for them as to how you operate and how you use that data for instance? Yeah. Mara Vroon: So for us, we have a web portal in which this is, visible. So at any given time you can actually check, what, what happens, to Sofie van den Enk: where's my scanner? Mara Vroon: Yeah. Well, yeah. Where's my stuff? Exactly. Where is the vessel that it is on? Has it already been discharged is is often, the the most important question. A vessel is in the port for for quite a long time depending on, how many containers it's loading or discharging. So is it discharged on hour 1 or on hour 48? The difference is, like, 2 days. So Sofie van den Enk: Right. And you try to make that as quickly and as most as as efficient as possible. Mara Vroon: Exactly. Exactly. To to enable also the smooth process, throughout the terminal and throughout the supply chain. Sofie van den Enk: So efficiency and sustainability as you so eloquently explained really go hand in hand. Right? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And and digitization is kind of the accelerator for that because that's that's the way you enable, these things going hand in hand. How how do you how do you help shippers and forwarders in in in in doing this? Donald Baan: So well, way back when we started was really about, data around the vessel and the customs and the harbormaster, really core port processes, but that generated so much data also about the cargo. And the vessel arrival, what Mara mentions, that there was a lot of demand for the data further along in the supply chain at shippers and for orders. So together with the community, we developed certain services that facilitate the track and trace information from all, ports, operators in the shipping lines. Mara Vroon: Mhmm. Donald Baan: Our service for the import cargo is called cargo controller, which bundles actually all kinds of information about the cargo, shipment details, and status updates, for the shippers who have cargo via port of Rotterdam. Mara Vroon: Mhmm. Donald Baan: So for example, APMT, Mars Flock 2, they also share their data via this cargo controller service to a lot of importers and, and forwarding companies. And that's, that's a really good service for them because it combines all kinds of data that they need to follow their cargo, not only from the terminal, but also from the shipping line and from hinterland operators. So they have one service where they can find all their data that they need. Alright. So this track and trace information is quite comprehensive already, and we are, together with the Intellant community exploring to add their data as well, so we can really reach to the Intellant. And one of the, we'll say, key, requests we get, the last, we'll say, half a year is more insights in, footprint and c o two, footprint, insights along the supply chain. Sofie van den Enk: The emissions. Donald Baan: The emissions, actually. So, and we are quite good positioned to provide at least basic set of data to calculate the emissions. So this is what, together with the community, we are exploring to, to provide, well, a general insight per supply chain. Sofie van den Enk: Do you recognize that? Do you get questions about emissions? Like, what happens exactly when unloading the vessel? Mara Vroon: Yes, definitely. Yeah. So, with within the the the wider, company and in our case then, Maersk, of course, our sister company, we see a lot of customers that are more and more interested in in that part and in their emission. And, there is a specific product launched as well, who is even yeah, which is even, more, Yeah, more, yeah, emission has less emission than than the regular product. Yeah, that that product is done with specific vessels that, sail on methanol. Mhmm. 21st September last year, we had the, the honor to receive the Laura Maersk. That was the first vessel that was that came out of the yard, as, with, running on, methanol. So, there is, there is a lot of, focus on it Yeah. In the wider supply chain. Sofie van den Enk: And do you see that people are willing to to pay more for that? Or is it just they wanna know where this is at? Or Mara Vroon: how does that work? No, you see that, that that comes more and more that there's also a willingness to pay for it, and it's also linked to to all of us as consumers. Mhmm. Do we want to pay more for that part? And, I think in in, in within different stores, you already get the opportunity to pay a little more for less, less CO2 emissions. So the demand is, is growing. Sofie van den Enk: Yeah. Do you see that? Because you talk to all kinds of all the members of Port Base. Donald Baan: No. We definitely see that, and that that's also the the interesting expansion of the communities that other types of companies, they they come to the community, and they request data Mara Vroon: Mhmm. Donald Baan: To provide, insight. But also legislation, is a very important push, for more sustainability. So the the emission reporting legislation, which is now, I think, as from the 1st January in place, it really gives you a push to the demand to get insight in where are my, emissions. Sofie van den Enk: Yeah. Those two things kinda go hand in hand. The the the policy makers, but also the demand, of consumers, are a big push and stimulus for for for being more aware of the of the emissions. Cargo goes beyond the port, reaching destinations deep into the the hinterland, of course. Does the visibility that the port space provides stop stop once the goods are picked up, at the port? No. You go beyond that point or Donald Baan: At the moment, it stops at the port. And when it leaves the port Yeah. And this is where we saw the demand also from, companies way in the hinterland to get more information about the whereabouts of their goods further along in the supply chain. But there are so many companies there that we are looking to, to connect with regional partners. So there's also smaller port interlands where we make a connection with. So, they can share their data with us. We can share the data that's available here with them, so we don't have to build and connect everybody, but we use partners to get access to the market. Sofie van den Enk: Mara, why is it important for you to to share the data? Why does APM believe in it so strongly? Mara Vroon: So it it's important to enable a smooth process, to enable a smooth process from beginning, until the end, until the goods are really at their final final destination. If we do not share that data, the the process also stops at a certain point or is delayed. So also to to keep the process ongoing, we saw that as well, during COVID times, right, when, goods were simply not picked up. That was not because of not sharing data but you see that if if there is a disturbance in in the the whole supply chain the goods are not picked up anymore. If that that continues to, go well, and I think especially sharing this data helps with this and helps to get it to get it out in time, to get it smooth. So the the more data you can share and the more it is used by all supply chain partners, the faster the whole process will go. Sofie van den Enk: Which data then do you share? Because some of it is sensitive. We already talked about that a little bit. And what's the added value of the data that you share? Mara Vroon: Yeah. So I think 22 things. Right? So, yes, some of the data is sensitive, but, it is not sensitive for the party that, that that owns the cargo or that is directly involved in that, in that chain. Mhmm. So also that type of data you do want to share, but you want to share with the right party. As Donald also said, the, the the the process of checking which party is behind the screen and and is pulling the data is very important. We want to share the data, but with the right party. Sofie van den Enk: Yeah. Exactly. Because there's so many stakeholders. It just Yeah. One, yeah, shipment. Donald Baan: Yeah. I think on average, there was calculations that about 28 companies are involved in the supply chain, on an average, supply chain from the far east. 28. Yeah. So 28. They touch somehow the cargo or have, business with the cargo, either in documentation or in other kinds of facilities. And, it's all in different digital maturity levels. Yeah. So could be that the one still uses the stamp while the other is fully automated. And, a a port community system also sometimes plays a role to connect to be a translator or connector to, well, also facilitate the really small companies, but also the really big companies so that they digitally can talk together and work together. Sofie van den Enk: Yeah. And then what's the added value of that? Donald Baan: So the added value is that the the data that everybody needs to optimize their planning is shared, very efficiently throughout the supply chain, via one standardized platform. So the the reach of the data is far more far bigger. So you reach a lot of companies, and that allows you to, well, say, optimize your processes quickly. Instead of every company for itself, start to digitize, talk a different digital language, and try to connect everybody. It's a it's a that's a suboptimal approach. So to here in Rotterdam, we say, well, let's bundle those generic processes into one company. They digitize it, and they connect everybody, to it. So with one connection to port base, you are currently connected to about 5,000 companies in the supply chain. Sofie van den Enk: Wow. Yeah. And then, of course, that's that's your job as as Rotterdam. You want to sort of facilitate everyone. Do you set, conditions for for companies whose cargo you're you're transporting? Like, we have to commit to this digital maturity level or you have to provide us at least with this level of information. Otherwise, we can't handle your shipment. Mara Vroon: Yes. Definitely. Yeah. And that's yeah. When we when we started the terminal up, 10 years ago, we already said for all hinterland parties, it is mandatory to work via port base. So, as Donald said, they are the translator for us. All of our information that needs to go in the hinterland goes to port base, and port base ensure that it's spread throughout all the hinterland parties who who are in need of this data. And that is really going from, when does the vessel arrive, when is the cargo opening time, when does the when is the container itself discharged, when is the vessel leaving again? It's it's a broad range of of timestamps, that, that are shared. Sofie van den Enk: Right? Yeah, it makes sense because otherwise you cannot guarantee that fluidity that you're, you're aiming for and that, that, that subtle, operation. So all the partners that you work, the shippers in southern Germany, or they they can all use the port based information or maybe via partners like you mentioned. Donald Baan: Yeah. Exactly. Yep. Sofie van den Enk: Can you provide an example of of the information that you enable to be shared among your, supply chain partners? Donald Baan: Yeah. I think Mara already gave some, very interesting examples from a shipping now and terminal perspective. What we add to it is, custom status information. So is a container scheduled to be, checked physically or digitally, and is it released already so you can actually pick it up? But also, bill of lading information, cargo information, how the shipping line declared it at the customs. That information is available for the ones who do the next declaration to the customs. Sofie van den Enk: And and growing and changing. What's what's next for Portbase? Donald Baan: So I think, if we look at, well, the next, topic is that we enable the optimization. So we don't build the optimization of the processes ourselves, but we see a lot of very interesting initiatives like in Rotterdam, we have Next Logic that optimizes the, well, the planning of the barges in the port. They are connected with one connection to port base so they can have access to all the data, but also to the companies that can make use of their solution. So this is the time where we actually connect with other types of optimizers, and we, enable them to, well, do their business in Rotterdam efficiently, but also for data owners that currently share data with Portbase to share their data with all other kinds of, companies that they are interested to share it with. So I think that's the next level what we are doing now, connecting the the complete ecosystem, within a port Yeah. To the data. Sofie van den Enk: What what are your ambitions or APM's ambitions in the port of Rotterdam? Mara Vroon: Well, we last year, we, we got the approval to expand our terminal. So, coming years, we will be doubling in size. That means double, yeah, really doubling the capacity of the terminal. And, yeah, that's, that's quite a challenge, right? Sofie van den Enk: Growth typically comes with challenges. How do you Mara Vroon: enable that? It doesn't get congested or. Yeah. So, also also in this respect, there is a lot of attention for the systems for the whole flow, digital flow also behind it to ensure that once that part doubles as well, we are ready to, to accommodate it without congestion, like we have right now. Sofie van den Enk: Okay. Well, good luck with that. Finally, maybe, what would your advice be to to shippers or freight forwarders that are looking that that understand that we need to share data, we need to really use this data to our advantage? If you're not really doing that yet, how can you, what would your advice be to get started? Mara Vroon: I would say, start using it, adapt your processes, with, all the data that is available and ensure that you do that in a sustainable way. How do you do Sofie van den Enk: that in a sustainable way? Mara Vroon: So within, within within our company, we have a standard, way of working, that comes also with, lean, for example, where you have a standard process of improving, improving certain processes. That means, we get together, in a room for a week, and we look how are the processes mapped right now, what kind of information could we, for example, from a party like Portbase, get to improve, improve that certain process, draft a new process and then start doing it? Sofie van den Enk: Yeah. So you do, you start with the data, but then you gather it and you, you talk about it in a room at a table with people. It's not you're not relying on the systems to improve your flow for you. Mara Vroon: Definitely not. And and you also don't do it alone. So, for example, last week, we had, a project like this to improve the, the idle time after operation, so the time when the operation is finished. But then the vessel is alongside the key. We would like it to leave as soon as possible. Mhmm. So in this process, we, we work together, with the port of Rotterdam, with the pilots, with the the tug companies, with, the the lines man altogether to see how can we improve this. But that really requires all parties to be there, to be involved, and to commit. Sofie van den Enk: Can you say anything about the conclusions? How how do you do that? Mara Vroon: So the conclusion, last week was that there is quite a lot to do. There is, a big action plan, but then we can achieve an improvement of 22%. Sofie van den Enk: Wow. Okay. Well, that that'll be of that will come in handy when you expand in size. Definitely. Yeah. Double in size, I should say. Okay. Well, I mean, that's huge that you can still draw 22% improvement out of really, like, taking the opportunity to reassess, like, how is this flow actually operating and what can we improve on? That's huge. And what would your advice be if you're not already a member of Port Base? Become a member, obviously, and then you'll help them figure it out. Donald Baan: Obvious step. Yeah. Sure. No. But I really, have the same line as Mara. I think it's so important also not only to discuss rates together, so what did this cost, but how can we optimize the collaboration and what kind of data do you need. So on the negotiation table, don't only talk about the course, but also talk about the data and the the collaboration perspective, because it's, it's, many times, it's forgotten. And then in the later stage, it's gonna be a topic. Mhmm. But it it should be really part of the of the talks with your suppliers and customers. How do you jointly, improve your, your performance? Sofie van den Enk: Yeah. From the start. Donald Baan: From the start. I think that's a very important one. Mhmm. And the other one is, our, experience. Also, you have to take this step by step based on concrete use cases like the one Mara has. Really make it tangible what the value is that you are creating by sharing this data and optimizing the process. Sofie van den Enk: Exactly. Because then in the in in maybe in the second instance, you will discover that you're actually cutting costs. Maybe that was not so obvious Exactly. In the beginning, but in the end, that's actually what happens. Mara Vroon: Yeah. Definitely. And it's a big elephant. You have to cut it in pieces. Oh, okay. So start small. Sofie van den Enk: Yeah. Start with the with the trunk. Mara Vroon: Start small. And then, then it's also, that makes it a bit easier to, to make some progress, celebrate that progress and continue Sofie van den Enk: and then build on that. Yes, exactly. Okay. Well, this has been very helpful, very hands on and and tangible for for people that are maybe starting to explore this topic, or or at a different, different level. Good luck with the expansion next year for 8 PM. Thank you for joining us, and and good luck sharing your wisdom and advice with, with all the other Yes. Parties. Thank you so much, Donald and Mara, for being here with us today. So digitizing really proves to be very important if you wanna reduce your footprint and waste, obviously. And, it'll be really good to to really take in these practical examples and see how port base becomes, available for the whole hinterland of the port area so the parties can connect and, improve inefficiency. In the next, episode of supply chain talks, I will be joined by HIPAA Lloyd and Port of Rotterdam Authority. Naomi van den Berg: I think the major challenge that maritime faces different from other maybe transport sectors is that there is no single solution. So we cannot say it will be, for example, let's say methanol. There will be a range of of fuels. And as a port, we're preparing for all these different fuels. Sofie van den Enk: Do you wanna know more? Visit port of Rotterdam dot com slash container shipping. Thank you so much for tuning in, and please join us again next time.